Skip Martin Special Interview

Transcript

right, so we have the one and

only Skip Martin in the

building.

Say hi, Skip.

How are you doing?

Skip this.

This podcast is going to be a

little different.

Greg, shut up.

Shut the fuck.

Up Yeah, we're doing a podcast,

so this podcast is going to be a

little different because I

didn't know how to prepare for

you.

Like, I don't know, I can't ask

you specific questions.

We've been friends for over a

decade, so I figured that we

would just kind of put this

together and kind of go more Joe

Rogan style and have some

shrooms and just figure this

out.

The the the more politics we

talk about, the better, I think.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

I can't.

I would just love that.

That'd be amazing.

Nicaragua recently reduced the

speed on the highway.

The speed limit.

To 30 kilometers an hour. 50 and

4031 miles an hour, right?

40 if you're a mass transit or a

motorcycle.

So since they changed that,

there's actually been still like

1000 accidents or something.

So they're saying that it's not

that it's not going to that they

may not renew it.

I don't know.

I'm, I'm sure it has something

to do with my guess is the World

Health Organization does grants

to countries.

And I'm, I'm sure I don't know

this for a fact, but I'm sure

it's somehow tied to some kind

of World Health Organization

grant to reduce traffic

fatalities.

They've really tried to enforce

helmets and a bunch of other

things.

So I think they're really trying

to get the, the deaths and stuff

down.

But at the end of the day, the

problem is twofold.

One, if you're in an accident,

you're not anywhere near a

trauma center, right?

Good luck, good luck.

So it could be something minor,

but you you could be seriously

hurt and it's not going to

you're not going to make it.

Well, the other thing is, is the

the roads are like, you know, it

could be a cow or it could be a

motorcycle with no lights, or it

could be just a drunk guy

walking the middle of the

highway.

It's just it's a dangerous place

to people always say, you know,

Nicaragua is really dangerous.

You know, is there a lot of

crime?

And it's like, no, the only

thing you really, really have to

worry about is getting into a

car accident.

Right.

So.

I mean, you might get your watch

stolen or something like that.

Yeah, but yeah, you're not gonna

get, you know, mass killings in

a elementary school or anything

like that.

That would be.

That's that's the US, that's the

United States.

That's only us.

We, we, we got that.

Number one, number one, when it

comes to we're number one, we're

#1 All right.

So what's going on in the

factory?

You know, I know that you've

released a couple things with

Sumatra.

You're working on this blend

with Jeff Mutay in Riverside for

his 15th anniversary.

Yeah, we're working on a lot of

things.

So the last time we talked was

right after we started the pre

industry, right.

There's AI think four or five

hour long episodes about that

interview that you guys could go

listen to.

So the last, the last three

years have really been kind of

focused more on the pre

industry, the how we source

tobacco, the whole supply chain.

So we we've been buying upstream

a lot more.

But a lot of times what happens

with that is you know, having to

work the tobacco yourself.

I mean, all the years we made

cigars, we just were able to

really depend on our partners

to, to ferment and, and prepare

the tobacco so that we kind of

got everything exactly the way

we wanted it.

Now we probably do 30% of the

work, I think 40% of the work.

So we end up with buying, you

know, we end up with tobacco

that's not dark enough or that's

not the right texture.

So like, for example, Mastranza

came around because we end up

with a lot of San Andreas that

isn't dark enough or heavy

enough.

So that's where Mastranza came

from.

You know, we, we have this, the,

the CF project we did for you

was the lighter side of the

stuff from bolstead it.

It's all great tobacco, but it

just doesn't meet the blend

requirements of our, our core

line.

So the maquette has been a

really interesting thing.

You know, we still, we still

have plans to do craft.

We have a 5 by 60 coming out

probably the beginning of next

year.

We it takes a long time to roll.

Crafts.

The craft all the elaborated

rapper so but we we started

doing every three months a a

craft maquette, which is this

idea that a maquette is a is

like if you've ever seen an

architect where they do the

little the little model of the

project they're working on or a

sculptor will do a smaller

version of it.

So what you're what they're

doing is they're working out the

the materials and the scale and,

and those things.

So a maquette for us is, you

know, we take a really, you

know, sometimes we just find

tobacco that is really

interesting.

Like for example, we were just

in, I had Alex in in Dominican

and he called me.

He said, hey, you know, they

have this, you know, tobacco and

this is what it is.

And I said, we know.

Have you smoked it?

He's like, yeah, it's really

unique.

It's very interesting.

It's like, how much do they

have?

And then he said, you know, 10

bells and I'm like, well, let's

buy 5 bells.

I have no idea what we're going

to do with that.

But at some point, you know,

we'll smoke it, we'll learn it.

And then at some point we'll use

it in a maquette as we kind of,

you know, work through.

How does this work with other

tobaccos?

Because when you're making new

blends, what happens is you

start with the material and then

you, you learn how the material

works together.

So a lot of times when I'm

working on something, for

example, like CRO Magna

Pennsylvania, you don't need 50

different iterations to, I mean,

you know what you want.

So you start with kind of these

are the materials I'm going to

have to use.

These are materials I can't use.

And then you say, OK, what is it

missing?

And so you maybe go through 3/4

iterations and a lot of times

you had it in the first two or

three.

So, but then what happens is you

have to actually make it.

You make it for a couple

reasons.

You make it to see, OK, we'll do

I have how does it work in

different sizes?

Do we have to change the

construction method or do we

have to, how do we do the ratios

and in the different sizes or

you, you say you also want to

calculate your consumption

because part of pricing out what

the tobacco, what it's going to

cost, which is part of pricing

out what you're going to charge

for it is understanding.

OK, if I make, if I make a

thousand of these, how much of

this filler exactly did I use?

How much of this binder did I

use consume?

So then that's a big part of it.

So it's in that part of the

blending process you make, you

know, to actually taste a blend,

you make a couple of molds,

maybe 20, but to actually then

you'll make 50 or 60 to kind of

to get the consumption piece of

it down roughly.

And then and to take and, you

know, smoke kind of every four

or five weeks.

You know, you've done this a

couple times, but then at some

point you make, you know, 800, a

thousand 1500 just to kind of

validate all those assumptions,

but also to see what it's like

when it ages.

So before you don't just go out

and say I'm going to make

100,000 of these and hope it

works out.

Right, right, that doesn't work

that way.

Right.

So when you get to that point of

where you're making like 1000 of

them, that's where we kind of

get into the maquette territory

because we know we like to

blend, we know we like the

sizes, we think we know what

it's going to taste like in six

months, you know, four months or

whatever.

So then sometimes like, like

Mastron's a good is a good

example.

I wanted to make that blend and

I thought maybe would be a

private label, maybe would be

like an LE for somebody.

But I liked it so much that it

became a Coraline.

But when we went from the, the

maquette version of Mastranza to

the Coraline, there was the

blend is exactly the same, but

we changed the size, we changed

the, the, the wrappers a little

bit darker.

It's not as clean as the

maquette was.

But in the maquette we were

using a very specific kind of

tobacco that we had accumulated

and we had accumulated it over

4.

Like for example, the binder on

the on the maquette Mastranza

was binder from Otto Padaka

wrapper that had already been

deveined.

And it already kind of, once you

deveined it, it starts to kind

of, you know, die, I guess

because there's no, the vein

system is still how the, the,

the humidity gets into the leaf,

right?

And it's kind of still breathing

and living in a way.

And then once you devein it to

make wrapper and binder and then

you go, oh, this wrapper is

actually binder quality, but

it's already deveined.

And then you dry it and put it

into a Bale.

After two or three years, they

say that tobacco's dead.

But interestingly, because

that's what we used on the on

the maquette, it has a

completely different flavor

profile.

Obviously it's more inert, but

than than just using Autoparaka

binder.

So the early Coraline mistrans

that we did, we did just with

Autoparaka binder and it it

didn't taste the same.

So we actually have had to start

buying binder, deveining it,

letting it dry out for six or

six months to a year.

So it would be the same.

To get it closer to the, you

know, the maquette.

So, but it's that that process

of maquette is about that

process of discovering all these

little things like how do you

put the brake back into the

bunch?

You know, what does the tips go

forward or backwards?

You know if you when you go,

when you go to A to a different

size, you know where you know,

how do you change the the you

know?

The Blend component.

Yeah, the ratio of the

component.

So maquette has been something

we've been working on.

I've really enjoyed it.

We have a new one coming out

called the steel Porcupine,

which is, which is interesting.

We, we've been working on a 15th

anniversary for Jerry at

Joseph's Cigar, which has been a

challenge because Joseph,

Michael Joseph doesn't really

like, he likes BACA and he

doesn't really like strong

cigars, which is mostly what we

make and making, you know, mild

to, you know, really mild cigars

is, is hard to do in Nicaragua.

You mainly you accomplish it by

not using much Nicaraguan

villain.

So the the one, the the best

milder cigar we ever made was

the the Schuster.

Anniversary cigar.

Yeah, the Casa Torres.

It was a perfecto.

Grandpa so we kind of started

with that, but kind of went kind

of the Baca direction with

Cameroon and Hamistron and I was

still never happy with it.

We did like 8-6 or seven

different versions of it,

starting from their, their thing

from the tobacco school to

saying, you know, you know, let

me.

And then finally I was smoking

in and I called Alex and I said,

Hey, I want you to make me some

samples.

Do this, do this, do this.

And Alex calls and goes, wow,

it's crazy good.

I'm like, I've been doing this a

while.

You know, he goes, it's crazy

how you do that.

I'm like, no, it's not, it's not

magic.

It's there's no magic involved.

It just thousands and thousands

and thousands of you know they

say, is it Malcolm Gladwell if

you spend 10,000 hours doing

something to become an expert?

I mean I I probably have 80,000

hours smoking cigars or 100,000.

Hours.

I mean, that's kind of funny

too, because I actually had a a

an interesting conversation with

somebody with that exact thing

in mind.

And, you know, the term master

blender pops up, right?

Which is, you know, ha, ha, we

all kind of laugh about or

whatever.

But someone said, you know,

Skip's not a master blender.

I'm not.

And I said that's exactly what

you would say.

Yeah.

But the reality is that, and I

broke it down, I go, how did The

Beatles become The Beatles?

It they spent so much time doing

something, they're that good at

it, you know, So you understand

tobacco at a higher level than I

would say the vast majority,

even people that are in Esteli

to some degree, right?

You know, I think a lot of the

people that I think of as

masters, people like Arsenio

Ramos, for example, or Hinky

Calendar or Benji Menendez.

These guys are masters because

for the most part, they started

from kind of the farm, the

agronomy, the how, how, how the

different variety.

I mean, Arsenio and Benji were

around as they hybridized seeds.

You know, all the things we we

use now, like Coroho 96 or

Habana 2000 or the Arsenio and,

and, and guys like Benji were

around when those things were

being developed.

So they understand the, the

blending from kind of the way a

chef who, who was a, a farmer or

a guy who owns a barbecue joint

that that raised livestock or

breeded livestock.

You know, then I think you have

people like EP Carrillo, who

he's, he's not.

I mean, he's an expert with

tobacco, to be sure, but I don't

think he would, you know, I

don't know Ernie as a farmer per

SE, or an agronomist.

You know, like Julio Roy is a

agronomist.

But, you know, Julio Roy makes

good cigars, but everything he

ever made is very, very mild and

well balanced, right?

Because for years and years,

most people tried to make Cuban

cigars, right?

And then also a lot of guys who

are on that end of the business,

they're thinking about how can I

make the best cigar to get the,

the best tobacco for yield, for

economics to generate, you know,

a profit.

You know, Carrillo, I would say

Papine, you know, I, I wouldn't

have a hard time saying Papine's

getting close.

If he's not already kind of a

master at, he's a master at the

craft of, of making cigars and

building a company.

AJ is probably in there, but I

wouldn't call Aja master, you

know, but you know, AJ when when

you go from, I mean guys like AJ

and Papine and Hinky, I would

say these guys when you can

manage everything from seeds to

growing to the to the the barns,

which is its own kind of crazy

alchemy to fermentation to

blending to generating products

to selling and distributing

them.

You can do it like the padrones

where they do four or five kinds

of tobacco and it's very, very

simple.

And they do it for years and

years and they just, they just

become, you know, masters of

doing their thing.

I would say Orlando was like

that Orlando padrone.

Or you could take some guy like,

you know, I had an experience, a

lot of experience working with

Ernie on King Guadagnario.

So it changed a lot of how I

perceived him in a in a lot of

ways, it really, I got a much

better appreciation for what he

does.

But in a lot of ways, it's like

it's so different than the way I

think about making cigars that

it kind of humanized him.

He wasn't a superhero.

Am I so much as a you know?

As just a cigar guy.

He's a master.

No, no, no doubt, but we think

about making cigars completely

different, which is why King

Guajanaro was a was a crazy

project.

I mean, at the end of it,

basically, you know, everyone

agreed, you know, keep your

factory because you're never

going to be able to work with

someone else to make your cigar.

It's not going to be the way

that you want it done.

Yeah.

And and that doesn't mean it's

right or wrong or indifferent.

It's.

Just your kitchen.

It's you're the chef, It's your

kitchen.

Right, right.

Yeah.

So to kind of close that out,

the I, I don't know enough of, I

mean, I can go into a room and

I've, I know enough parlor

tricks and enough experience to

say, you know, you're this guy's

telling me this is Esther Lee.

But I know it's Kondaga, right?

Or this guy's telling me this is

Connecticut River Valley

Broadleaf.

I obviously know that it's

Pennsylvania.

I know those kinds of things.

This is the way, you know the

difference between a cashew and

a peanut.

You know, just cause I've been

arounding it enough.

But you know, sometimes I mean,

I even doubt myself.

Someone will hand me a cigar and

I'll be like, in my head I go

like today somewhere, last night

someone gave me a cigar and I'm

like, this is Sumatra.

And then then I'm like, is it

Habano?

And they're like, no, it's

Sumatra.

And I'm like, fuck, why don't I

just trust myself, you know?

Well, yeah, instinctively the

first response is probably the

right response, right.

But I mean, Sumatra and Habano

are they're, they're a lot of

similarities.

And they're hybridized.

So depending on which kind of

does it look more like the

mother or the father, you know?

Yeah.

So I mean, I I'm, I'm better

than the average guy I would

guess in terms of experience.

I would say so.

Yeah, I'm not a master.

I would say that you're you're

in the conversation, dude.

I mean, you know, I mean, you're

the only guy I trust.

So there's well.

That's a different thing.

Yeah.

And that I think that's less

about, again, you know, like I

say all the time, making cigars

is not, there's no magic

involved, right?

There's no secret tobacco.

There's no, there is some of

that in terms of just I guess

there's master tasters or

master, you know, people at

hybridizing whatever, right.

But if you give me finished

material or material that's

close to being finished, I can

generally, I can generally tell

what I need to do with it to

make it the way I want it.

And definitely when tobaccos are

kind of working together, I, I

know what I like.

And you know, I, I never, I

never approach it from the

perspective of how do I make the

thing that this person will

like?

Like, how do I make a cigar that

cigar aficionado will love,

right?

Or how do I make a cigar that

Michael Joseph would love for

his anniversary?

I'll say, hey, we can do it your

way.

But if, if I don't, if it's not

something I'm going to smoke,

right?

You're going to be hard pressed

getting it out of my factory,

right, because I can point you

to somebody who'll do exactly

what you want as long as you pay

them the what you want to pay

them.

And a lot of times it doesn't

even have to do with the the

money for me.

I mean, the money will work out,

but I know what I like.

And we, you know, Mike says it,

I, I say it all the time is we

don't make cigars for everybody.

You know, we make cigars that we

like.

I make cigars that I like.

Hopefully Mike likes them too,

because that we make what I want

to make.

You guys have two totally

different pellets.

Yeah.

And when Mike, when Mike tells

me, hey, I want to make this,

I'm like, you know, whatever.

And then sometimes we'll try it

off to the side and I'll be

like, hey, that was great.

And then Mike goes, yeah, I told

you that six months ago.

And I'm like, well, yeah, but

now it's my idea, you know, so

it's.

Much better at that point.

No, and it's not about ego or

anything.

It's just about I have to get

into a frame where I'm in that

flow with it.

A lot of the projects you've

worked on recently with Alex,

I'm like, man, I don't know.

I'm not AI know I'm not a big

fan of these.

When when the Connecticut came

out, I called you, well, first

of all, when it was blended, I

said, man, I don't know, but

maybe it'll maybe it'll kind of

get better.

And then at the time we were

going to pull them out because

we usually do Connecticut for

about 12 weeks.

And I had some pulled out and I

started smoking them and smoke

them.

And I called you and I said,

dude, trust me when I tell you

we should take this whole entire

production.

We should put it in unbanded

bundles and just sell it as.

Just purge them.

Yeah, just let's unload this

before we embarrass ourselves.

And you're like, well, do they

draw?

I'm like, yeah, of course

they're, they're made.

Right.

And is it tobacco?

Good.

I'm like, of course we used to

go tobacco.

I just, it didn't, you know,

it's like, it's like a flat

cake, you know, And I don't know

if you ever seen that, that

movie, the wine movie where the

guy goes crazy because his

wine's all cloudy and then he

just like gets rid of it all.

I think it's called like bottle

shock or something like that.

And then it turned out that the

the wine was so perfect that

like in two days it cleared up.

And then he won all these big

awards.

I'm not saying that happened

with this.

That's.

Pretty much.

That's pretty much post on in

Connecticut.

But what happened, whatever

happened when the humidity

changed on that cigar, I had him

like out on the desk in the air

conditioning for, you know, a

couple of weeks.

And I went back to and I said,

actually, it's, you know, it's,

it's actually pretty good.

Yeah, that was pretty funny,

man.

Yeah.

I would have never released that

blend.

Yeah.

Because I totally trust your

judgment, right?

So when you call me and you're

like these are I'm like fuck.

OK, So you know, I said send

some, send me some.

And like I I light it up.

I smoke it here dude.

I drop my I only use a big I

have a contract.

Hold on.

Did I drop my oops, sorry.

Thanks.

Yeah, my my, my Esteli DuPont.

But yeah, I wouldn't.

I would have never released that

cigar because I just didn't feel

it from the beginning.

Yeah.

So I light it up and I say, and

you're like, see, you see what

I'm talking about?

I'm like, no, I have.

I don't see it.

Yeah.

Like, it's amazing.

It's everything I thought it

would be, you know?

Yeah, and I'm interested to see

how the the warbearer comes out

because that's another one.

When I smoked it, I'm like, man,

I'm not too sure about this.

The the catastrophic failure.

I was like, you know, it's OK,

but it turns out I really,

really like that blend.

And actually we're going to do

Palestinian, Sumatra, we are.

So that's how much I like it.

Yeah.

I mean, it's, it's pretty

remarkable how how the blending

and development all kind of

happens, right.

And my kind of rule of thumb is

that, you know, we start off

with kind of this base, right.

And when it's almost like when

we gravitate to a point where

you no longer like it, but it's

OK and I still love it.

I know that it's got my kind of

image on it, if that makes any

sense.

It's 100%.

It's less you and more us,

right?

So.

And, and, and from the very

beginning, so I don't know if

people know this, but the

Palestine Habano and the the

broad leaf are not that much

different than broad than CRO

magnon and aquatine.

And you guys got there on your

own.

It was kind of because that's

the tobaccos we had.

But now that we have a lot more

kinds of tobaccos in the pre

industry and we have a lot more

different kind of grades and

shades and and textures in

inside of each one.

It's kind of really opened up.

You know it's kind of like going

from like 16 colors on the

original computers to like you

know 256 colour to 64 bit.

I mean, there's a lot more

options, right?

So, but there, you know, what is

a good cigar?

I think there's objective

criteria for what a good cigar

is, What is good tobacco?

I mean, some people you know,

from it's like what is a good

steak?

Is it medium rare?

Is it medium well?

Is it well?

I mean, everybody has a

personal.

Preference medium rare below

right.

But you know, for me, it's like

fermentation is like that.

You know, it's a funny thing

when you have, when you ferment

wrapper.

For example, let's say we buy

5000 lbs of wrapper.

We get 2, two or three years

worth of of a kind of wrapper.

You can't take the whole Pallone

to 100%.

You have to take it to where you

get 30% of the Pallone at 95%

and then you then you kind of

kill the Pallone, put it into

packs or boxes and then you put

it back into a smaller Pallone

when you need the next year's.

Because if you take it all the

way up to 100% and then you put

it into into boxes for for a

year and a half or two years, it

it started.

It's not the same as what you

want.

So it's kind of like, you know,

you sous video it up to, you

know, so you can cook, cook what

you need as you needed.

But it's kind of almost there.

It's.

Like prepped.

Yeah.

So there's a lot of things like

that you learn.

But you know, Alex's, I always

say Alex's superpower.

He hates it when I say this.

But it's like, dude, it's like

your superpower is turning $3540

rapper into $10 binder.

I'm looking at these numbers

like, what the fuck are you

doing?

You're killing me here.

But we're, you know, like one of

the things we do is now is we we

sort filler.

Yeah, which nobody does.

No.

So, you know, you go buy filler,

it's in the packs, it's

supposedly all sorted, it's

supposedly all graded by texture

size, everything it should be

ready to use.

We open every one of those 100

packs and then and then our team

are Despega team comes up with,

you know, 16 different grades

and varieties out of that 100

lbs.

No kidding.

It's crazy, but for example,

we'll open up a pack of of

halapa seco, which shouldn't be,

you know, shouldn't be that much

work to do right?

So you open and you go, OK, this

alaposeco is is great for base

leaf.

This is not good for base.

This Alaposeco, it has more

texture.

So we need to use it for Whiskey

Rebellion, whereas this one has

a little less texture.

We need to use it for EC or

whatever, right?

So even within, even if you have

a, you know, a, a medium halapa

viso from you know, Corojo from

Agonorsa that has already been

graded and fermented and

everything even within that

£100, this goes to that blend.

This goes to that blend.

This is going to have to get

sold or or traded and this is,

you know, going to have to be

sold or traded at a much lower

dollar amount because it's just

not should never even been in

that pack.

And you know, I think we have 70

people.

Obviously we only have 24 of

them making cigars.

So that's like one person, you

know, you know, two people for

everyone production head.

That's not good ratio of numbers

for making money.

No.

So I mean, our, our factory is

pretty much nonprofit.

I think, you know, we do.

We do about one 1.2 million

cigars a year.

You know, we try to do it where

at the end of the year, if we

make 4040 or $50,000 then then

we're good, right.

And you know, most of these

guys, if they were making

$50,000 on a 1.2 million cigars,

they just shut it down, right?

Yeah.

But we're not, we never lost

money.

I'm not, you know, I don't lose

money.

That's good.

But all of that is to say, you

know, it's not about the magic

of making cigars.

It's about all the little

decisions you have to make to

produce the thing that you know

is the right way of doing it.

And just be willing to say, you

know what, You know, I hate to

do it, but that $140,000 we have

in that Pallone, let's see if we

can trade it to X company for

$80,000 worth of filler because

I'm not using it and there's not

a lot of people to do that.

A lot of people say, well, can

we cook it?

Can we use it for bundle cigars?

Can we, you know, they have a

lot more options than we have,

obviously.

But those are the decisions that

that differentiate, you know, a

factor that makes good cigars or

hit and miss cigars and a factor

that's, you know, the half full

factor of the year, 4 out of

five years, right, right.

So you recently you kind of

touched on Baca originally when

you made Cameroon, you weren't

working with Mirapell, right?

No, we actually sorry, only one

person.

That's only Fiorella.

Gotta take it.

Yeah, I would.

It's a video call too.

She's probably asking me to

approve extra time on her

tablet.

More iPad time.

Yeah, that's the only time.

Either that or when you Yep,

screen time request the that or

when I turn the that or when I

turn the the Wi-Fi off and

change the if I if I change the

Netflix password, I get calls

from all my children.

So so let me approve her some

screen time here.

It's funny, like I knew exactly

what it was there she is So, so

to answer the question about So

what we the only real Cameroon

is from Miraphel.

The the original Baca was

Miraphel Cameroon that we were

buying from Gilberto Oliva.

And then when Gilberto sold to

Jay Cortez to to Fred, there

were still some of that Gilberto

Oliva Cameroon like Carlos

Sanchez had a bunch.

And then once we kind of went

through that, we stopped making

Baca and then the Mirfield

family.

So before COVID, Long story

short, before COVID, we both

kind of came, came with this

idea of making a, a cigar called

Mastranza completely

independently, but both inspired

by the same episode of Chef's

Table, ironically.

So I had Frank Herrera register

the trademarks.

We did the Madrid protocol, so

we had to trademarks registered

in Europe, in Nicaragua and the

United States, Canada.

And one day I released a, a

picture on Instagram saying,

hey, you know, here's our new

cigar.

And somebody goes, oh, there's

already a cigar named this.

And I'm like, there's no way I

own the trademarks.

So it turns out there's a bundle

cigar or whatever that was being

made or value cigar being made

by the Mirfield family.

They sold it in Canada and

Europe and went to them and

said, look, you know, we, we

trademarked this, we were going

to do it.

You know, you know, obviously

you, you have something in the

market already.

I don't want to be a copycat.

So the plan was just to sell

them the marks.

They, I don't know why.

I don't know why people in the

cigar business don't actually

spend the couple $1000 to

trademark stuff before they, I

think because maybe it, it, it

gives people a signal of things

that they're going to do, but

they actually released stuff

before they trademark it, which

makes no sense to me.

But but they had what you call

the common law mark, you know,

is in use in the market.

So at the end of the day, we

just kind of agreed.

He'd asked me for years to make

a project with him and I just

didn't really feel it felt like

it felt it fit.

And then so we just kind of had

a lot of discussions and then

and then one day was like,

listen, you sell it in Europe,

we sell in the United States.

By the way, we could use some

tobacco.

We've been using your.

He goes, yeah, as long as you

put a seal on the box that says

it's mirror filled tobacco.

Oh, no kidding.

I'm like, no problem.

But then the artwork that they

gave us I didn't like.

So we ended up not using it.

So we're still working on trying

to get one that, that is, you

know, what we want.

That's Romacraft esque.

Yeah, but because the seal has

the actual continent of Africa,

which is also in the BACA logo.

And so I felt like it

conflicted, but we worked that

out.

They sold us direct and maybe at

some point we'll make a Mirfield

project.

I think they generally don't

like to tell people what

factories make those projects.

So you you may not ever know we

made it but.

But I know.

Yeah, I probably know.

OK, well.

There will be signs.

I come down to the factory and

you know, somebody from

Mirfield's hanging out,

something like that.

What about Matafina?

What's going on with that 'cause

people are always, a lot of

people are always asking about

wanderlust.

And yes, it's European market

only.

However, from what I've heard in

like our conversations, you're

you haven't been able to source

that tobacco.

Well, it's the same problem we

have without a paraka.

The, the, we're very specific

about the kind of tobacco we

want.

And until I can get Alex on an

airplane to go down to Brazil,

the the problem is we used to

buy really good out of padaka

for $18.00 a pound.

And then we worked it for a

long, long time, like 5-6 years.

And then the problem now is it's

$35 a pound or $40 a pound.

It's not half as good, right?

We depended a lot on Phillip

Schuster to help us source the

Modafina.

Phillip retired and now his son

Martin is is the head of the

Schuster August Schuster.

So.

And he's really cool.

Yeah, I like him, the whole.

Family, I love the whole family,

but I mean what it what it boils

down to is is when we find the

tobacco and it's the kind

equality and everything that I

want, we'll make it again.

Until then, we can't make it OK.

Also, one of the components we

use in it is going to also be

harder to find than than it used

to be, so.

Why is that?

Because the guy we were buying

it from doesn't have it anymore

so.

Makes sense.

Yeah.

OK.

So my cat's coming out.

You have Craft coming out.

What, what else are you kind of

envisioning at the end of 2025

and kind of into 2026?

Right now the hardest thing for

us to make is Aqua Tang.

Aqua Tang because getting good

high priming Habano has been

tough.

We, we just bought some more.

We bought, you know, about 1/2

year's worth 88 or nine months

ago from, from Gus Cura.

He just hasn't had any that

meets kind of requirements.

We have.

We don't use a lot, but a lot of

times when they sell tobacco,

they just sell it all.

You know, you can't just pick,

you know, cherry pick what you

want.

But we found some more in the

Dominican with Dunn and Foster

this last month.

So you know, we'll start

production on that again, I

think in the next year, it's

going to be Palestania, Sumatra,

it's going to be this Joseph's

project, the the Jeff's project

with the 15th year.

That's pretty much it.

I think I'm kind of surprised at

how popular Mistrans has been.

So once we catch up on that, I

think we'll maybe make an LE in

that or maybe make something,

you know, we'll see.

But.

Is there any type of rapper

right now that you're really

interested in working with?

I would really like to work with

authentic Kuroho, but Krishnaroa

doesn't want to sell it to me,

so I think I could do some crazy

good cigars with that.

There's a lot of Kuroho out

there, but you know, it's just

not the same.

Why won't he sell it to you?

I mean, you know.

For a man who has so many words.

Like, I mean, I mean, I mean

Julio or or Husto would sell it.

I'm sure they would love to sell

it, but you know, they have

their own cigars.

So like, you know, sell it to me

for X dollars a pound or make

cigars and make three times the

money, right?

So I mean, I don't blame them,

but just like you know,

Placencia has great hamistron,

but I can't buy.

I can't.

He won't sell it to me.

What about the mountain tobacco?

The yeah, that's, yeah, that's.

I haven't, I, I smoked a sample

of that at the trade show.

But I mean, pretty much

everything in Estele is high

altitude, but that's even that's

like coffee region high

altitude.

Everyone, I mean, everything

they've been making Placencia

just, it seems to me like

they're kind of hitting on all

cylinders.

It's a little expensive for me

personally, but.

OK, alright.

Well, does anybody have any

questions?

For you, do we have something

more interesting to talk like

you mean my philosophy on

business, raising children,

relationships, anything?

And you saw right there how I

handled that.

Yeah, that was amazing.

So dialed in.

Incredible.

You guys have any questions or

anything?

Anybody want to ask them?

Any any skip any questions?

Julian, What?

You got something?

You got to have something.

No, it's the meaning of life.

Nothing.

OK, All right.

Well, I guess we'll just wrap it

up from here, man.

Well, thanks and thanks again

for coming on, dude.

And thanks for coming down here.

I really appreciate you.

I appreciate everything you do

for us, man.

You're, of course, you're one of

the greatest friends I have, so.

That it makes me feel bad for

you a little bit.

I.

No, I appreciate.

I mean, you know, here's the

thing, it kind of comes from,

look, you cover a lot of this on

the Patreon, so I don't need to

get into all the, the industry

gossip, but I'm kind of a

guarded person in general in, in

terms of trusting people.

And, and to me it's, it's pretty

simple.

It just do what you say you're

going to do, you know, treat

other people the way you want to

be treated.

And that doesn't mean like, you

know, everybody likes you is

because like, because I am

authentic, there's people who

just don't like me, right?

And and that's OK.

But what they can't say is that

I've lied to them.

They can't say I cheated them,

that I owed them money and

didn't pay it, that, you know,

that I tried to deceive them

somehow because I'm just not

that person.

So for me, I mean, I think, you

know, we're different people.

We think about things very

differently.

But if I say I'm going to do

something, I do it.

If you say you're going to do

something, you do it.

If if you call me and say, hey,

could you help me?

It's like, of course, what is it

you need?

You know, and I'm the same way,

you know, I think kind of our

relationship is more built on

that than anything. 100% right.

Absolutely, Palmer.

Anything else to add?

Yeah.

What's your editorial?

Yeah, Palmer, BDP.

Well.

I don't have anything that'll

make you cry but what non

industry podcast do you listen

to?

Oh, I listen to.

I've been listening a lot more

to Scott Galloway.

He has a podcast called Raging

Moderates that I like 'cause I

am, contrary to popular belief,

very moderate.

I'm not a liberal really.

I'm little lower case liberal,

right, Right.

I mean, I have really good

friends.

Oh, another, I might be working

on a project with a, a gun

manufacturer, which is really

cool.

They're friends, buyers, but

they are like.

I can't.

We can't say the name far.

Right, I don't know but but.

Are they located in Texas?

Yeah, but we sit.

Down really nice guns.

We sit down and we start talking

about, we start talking about

political policy things and

we're, we're like almost 100%

like, well, that makes sense.

Well, of course that makes

sense.

You know, And it's like, well,

this is how I feel about

immigrants.

It's like, well, living in

Nicaragua, let me give you

another perspective.

And you're like, yeah, I

completely understand that.

But what about Ms. Yeah, of

course nobody likes Ms. 13 or

whatever.

So.

Yeah, but I'm, you know, I

liberal in the sense of keep

your dirty government paws off

of my business.

But then kind of, you know,

capital L liberal in the sense

of, you know, you know how I

grew up.

I got where I am because of

America and I and I and living

in Nicaragua, when nothing

works, you know, just because

the government is not has no

efficacy, then you start

realizing I don't care how big

the government is or isn't.

It just needs to work and it

should be efficient.

So I listen to Scott Galloway,

the raging moderate moderates.

He he also has another podcast

with Kara Sedgwick, I think

called Pivot or something that I

listen to.

I listen to the NPR hourly news.

I I listen to a lot of podcasts.

Mike Skip doesn't think I smoked

on the show.

We're not allowed to show him

smoking on the.

Show, I know it's about

monetization, Yeah, OK.

I listen to Joe Rogan.

Depending on who the guest is,

Yeah, if it's somebody that I'm

interested in the guest, I'll

listen to it.

That's it.

There you go.

Anything else, Palmer?

Is TV hard to get in Nicaragua?

Is that why you do a lot of

podcasts or is that just your

preferred form of entertainment?

No, actually I use AVPN, so a

Nord VPN.

So I stream, I I have like

DIRECTV stream.

I have all the streaming

services.

So I can I but I'm awake 20

hours a day, right.

So I kind of always have

something in the background,

yeah.

There you go.

All right.

Well, thanks.

We're going to finish on that

strong.

Yeah, we're going to have

nobody.

Else nobody else has a question.

Go ahead, Eric.

What you got?

Oh, this the cappuccino of

Sassanino.

This is the next shirt that we

got coming out on Chapter Pod.

I figured I'd wear it on this

one, but I'm gonna wear it on

the and talk about it more on

the the actual show.

But yes, you have heard of

Italian brain rot.

Yeah, I tried to get Fiorella to

demonstrate her knowledge and

she she basically says I don't

dance, FUI don't dance.

She's Yeah, she's you don't call

her on cue.

No, she does it by herself

whenever she wants, not when you

ask her to do it right.

Yeah, she's she's like my clone.

Yeah.

In a lot of ways.

I can see that for sure.

So, but yeah, this is this is

the next shirt coming out on

chapter pod.com.

So Julian's very excited.

Do you have copyright

infringement problems?

With that, no, no, not yet.

Did you ever sell the BDPT

search?

You're going to have to give

those away.

No, we sold them.

You sold all of them.

Yeah, yeah.

Nice.

Are you interested, Sir?

No, no.

Hurtful.

Just a little hurtful skin.

Yeah, I wear your shirts all

the.

Time I have something like 200

T-shirts yeah I think I keep

like 30 or 40 in Austin and like

you know 60 or 70 and you know

whatever however I have AI have

way too many T-shirts I have the

the 2X skinny skip T-shirts and

the 3X it really just depends on

what you know what month we're.

Working what's going on?

Yeah, if it's bulking season or

cutting season, yeah, got it.

Very cool.

All right, well, again, thanks

so much for coming on, brother.

We appreciate.

You, man, you're welcome.

Skip everybody.

Show Notes

A Special Interview With Skip Martin